MOD ANNOUNCEMENT

[theearth]

As many of you are aware, there has been a recent incident involving ourselves and a few players. We wish to address this matter here.

Firstly, we apologize not only for our delay in speaking on this, but for our own behavior during this. We do take fault for having been too inflexible on the matter which started everything. All of us are to blame for this inflexibility and we all take responsibility for it; not just one mod is fully to blame for anything which happened. The plot the player desired should not have been dealt with in the way that it was. Our reasoning had been that we had not seen evidence that the plot had been set in stone, we had not been given reason why change was necessary to reconcile the plots, and that the details behind this plot/what was needed to occur to bring it to fruition were not brought to us. We offered one compromise, it was not taken, and we should have been more flexible about offering further compromises. We are, again, sorry for that inflexibility on our end.

Secondly, to prevent any risk of this sort of situation ever happening again, we are discussing a frankly overdue new system of accounting for, organizing, and simplifying coordination between planned plots, both meta and player. Details on it will be coming soon.

And thirdly, the mod with the most concerns voiced about her has been issued a warning, and will be taking far less of a stance involving plot-related issues for the time being. We will monitor her behavior to ensure a repeat of this kind of situation does not occur again and, should it, she will be dealt with. In line with those concerns, while she will still be involved in plotting and whatever issues may come to us, the other mods will have far greater a say, and will be considered the figures of authority where directly addressing player concerns and needs is concerned.

However, what we stand firm about is that ganging up on a person while refusing their own comfort is not permissible. The mod in question had become extremely uncomfortable having so many people, including one not in the game, on her all at once while she was not feeling well. This was the reason warnings were issued. We do, however, concede to having been too impulsive in issuing warnings to all involved, and once more, we do apologize to the parties who had been warned without having acted severely enough to warrant a warning. All but one of the warnings has been lifted.

Finally, not all the mods are experienced mods, and even the more experienced mods will acknowledge they can always use some help. So please, we ask that if any of you have any suggestions on how we might improve to come and tell us.

Thank you and, once again, we all apologize for our respective parts in this situation.

Comments to this post are enabled. At request, they have been unscreened. If you have left a screened comment and would like it unscreened, please indicate so! As per the suggestion of Guin, if you would prefer to leave us a screened comment, please do so on the Mod Contact post.

We will make a second post addressing those concerns, resolutions, and invitation of a second round of feedback as soon as we're able.

UPDATE - 5/3:

The StE modteam is currently planning to come together as a group and discuss all the issues brought to them on this post. Linda and Guin will be present while we are all on to continue discussion as a full team in order to ensure that all points and issues are thoroughly addressed.

This discussion will be happening as soon as possible - but coordinating schedules has proven difficult, so please bear with us.

This post will be edited accordingly once the discussion's day and time have been set.

UPDATE - 5/3:

The discussion will begin Sunday, May 4th, 5:00 P.M. CDT/3:00 P.M. PST.

UPDATE - 5/4:

The discussion has begun and is underway; it's proven to be more intensive than anticipated and hasn't yet ended, but will resume tomorrow and continue until concluded.

In the meantime, screencaps of the discussion thus far are posted at Linda's public Plurk; further updates will be made on this post and the linked Plurk, including the date, once set, of the second post.

UPDATE - 5/5:

Discussion has now concluded - we're sorry for having been quiet for so long!

Formal address of the points brought to this post as well as a second OOC post and a mod apps announcement will be coming by the end of tomorrow - Tuesday, 5/6.

- THE STE MODS: Anduin, Blue, Mini, and Olga

Comments

[andshoes]

Excuse me, but I'm concerned about the fact that just a warning has been issued despite repeat offenses on one mod and people being uncomfortable across the board with the mod in question being in power.

A ban warning was issued to players based on a plurk where they were asked to help a friend, and to see that after multiple concerns were brought to you about someone, considering the term you used was "the most," with no real consequence is concerning.

Fran offered the same excuse when she was banned--that she didn't feel well. You threatened players with their position in the game, essentially holding their fun hostage because at most four members felt uncomfortable with their conduct. And your excuse was "we felt ganged up on" and "I didn't feel good."

Here I'm seeing that at least a dozen are very uncomfortable with the way you handled yourselves, and you can't even issue a real apology to us for causing wank in the game that we have helped build. And yes, you caused the wank. We're certainly not mods, but without a playerbase there is no game, and without the fantastic players we have here and their engaging threads the game would not be near as popular as it is.

My advice to you is this: either learn to change your toxic and inflexible attitudes and actually prove it, unlike how you said you would change and give us more of a heads up on things, or step down and let people who can actually handle conflict take the game. You are not doing yourselves any favors with this post, and you continue to put blame on others while refusing to say "I was wrong" without a caveat. This is terrible behavior on the part of the mods, and you are hurting our game with it.

feel free to unscreen my comment.

[hollowleg]

I'll be frank. Having read everything available about this incident, I believe Mini should be suspended, not just warned. She's broken that newly added inflexibility rule pretty badly. The party was a plot that had already been established and had many people participating, and it would not have hurt her to move the death back 24 hours. At all. Nothing would have changed.

But what's worse than that inflexibility is the mod response after. I believe you've understated how detrimental the wording of those PMs were. This is the main problem with what happened, not the original plot conflict. They were bullying, plain and simple, giving out warnings and threatening banning for bringing up concerns. That's ridiculous and quite honestly makes me worry about ever bringing any issues to your attention, especially about the mod issues. I don't want to get banned or warned for not liking a mod's behavior. I will grant that the PP was a little strange (inclusion of ONE other party for moral support is understandable, but not 3-4, and not someone outside the game. I know how scary it can be to go to mods all by yourself) but I will not concede that Olga was "ganged up on". It was her choice to enter the conversation with anything more than "I have a headache and I will get to this later". Anduin was also included in the PP but Anduin is apparently never around. Not a good showing for the mods.

I'm glad you guys have decided to address this, it's a step in the right direction. You guys need to learn to communicate better amongst yourself and do a much better job of communicating to players. And not make passive aggressive, vague posts about respect to the OOC comm. Mods are certainly offered more respect than the average player, but they also have to earn it by being professional, unbiased, and as fair as possible. Additionally, I think it may be time to open up moderator applications. It's clear from a player perspective that the current team is overwhelmed by the size and speed of the game. Additionally, you need to come up with a way to hold mods accountable when they screw up.

Sorry if this is a little disjointed. I really do want to see this game continue and thrive, and help you guys to be the leaders I know you can be.

But I have another bit of complete honesty; I won't be surprised if this comment also lands me in the dog house in terms of my pending plot request. I am afraid to post this because I think it might impact my ability to do things in the game. I think that speaks a lot to what kind of mod/player atmosphere you've fostered.


EDIT: Oh and I just learned that someone did indeed bring the issue of one of the mods possibly fudging AC for a castmate and friend to the mod contact post, and that was not addressed. I hope you guys do decide to investigate that accusation seriously.

EDIT THE SECOND: unscreen this comment if you please

[pianistofraielin]

Considering the fact that speaking to each of us individually through PMs felt like a silencing tactic, I would suggest that comments to this post be left unscreened by default to provide accountability in the mod responses. Right now you guys need transparency more than anything.

Since comments on the mod contact are already screened by default, you can direct players who don't want to speak publicly to that post instead.

Please unscreen this comment.

ETA: Thank you.

[detectivetroll]

I will admit I'm honestly not sure what happened here and I've never had a problem plotting with anyone involved, but have you thought about maybe taking on one or two more mods to help out?

Maybe even having mod specialities like approving echoes, or coordinating player plots, or dealing with player concerns, or something?


EDIT: I'm okay with this being unscreened.

[eso_si_que_es]

You've still failed to address how the Jake/Snow, apparently a friend of Anduin's, has been sliding by without making AC properly for months with little to no reaction from the mods.

october: http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/119755.html?thread=3275467#cmt3275467 first check they're in is fine, just accepted
november: http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/132199.html?page=1#comments no comment
december: http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/153304.html?thread=4163288#cmt4163288 hiatus, guess they're excused
january: http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/170374.html?page=1#comments no comment
february: http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/188608.html?thread=5215168#cmt5215168 comments but those threads are of a length the mods would have asked anyone else for more threads/made them take a strike
march: http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/197228.html?thread=5525868#cmt5525868 strike"

Don't screen this, I already have a cap of it anyway.

[heyya]

This is not an apology. You are the ones entirely in the wrong here, don't go "but but but look at what those players did!"

Furthermore, people aren't as concerned with your inflexibility as they are the blatant abuse of mod power ala issuing ban threats to people who come to you with issues, in addition to the gross mod favoritism as demonstrated by a) mod (as players) plots being prioritized b) mod friends not needing to pass ac.

Personally, when I've communicated with the mod team in the past, I've always felt as though I was being treated in a manner that would not be considered remotely acceptable if brought to the public eye, precisely because I was in a position where I could not do so. That, to me, is revolting.

"-the mod with the most concerns voiced about her" Mini? Anduin? Olga? This is the opposite of transparency. Tell us what is actually going on - mentioning that the ban warnings have been rescinded (minus Batty?) would be a good place to start.

Finally, nobody was "ganging up on" a mod, as you keep insisting. Nobody was demanding that their concerns be addressed there and then while Olga was ill and Anduin was absent. Olga was the one who persisted, when a simple "I'll get back to you tomorrow when I've talked this over with the others" would have been readily accepted. Olga did not attempt this. What she did attempt was the making of a new plurk involving the two mods whom the complaints were being brought against, with no regard for the repeated mentions of discomfort from the players and worries that such a thing would not be productive.

Do not screen.

[godsavemysocks]

Pretty much everything the others have said.

People don't care that you have been inflexible so much as you've revealed a broader issue: Your mods, on a whole, do not know how to mod, and are unable to effectively mod because of this. You also don't know the value in transparency.

To give a quick lowdown:

Transparency: The outing of mod actions and player concerns in full. This needs to be done whenever possible, especially when players distrust you. This proves to players you're willing to sit down and tell them the truth, instead of skirting around it. By screening the comments at first, you actually went anti-transparency: you forced people to get answers on their own, got to pick your battles without judgement, and inversed the complaint you made about players. In an open environment, you locked off all people from discussing the problem with you as a group. You, as a mod team, however, are not one entity, as you've consistently proven. This means that any players who did respond could pretty much be ganged up on, in a group of 4 to 1, and that strongly discouraged players from talking to you honestly or publicly. Transparency is important to encourage trust in mods and an open conversational environment where people feel free and unsuppressed. You threw both of these concepts in the trash with this post, trying to skirt around actually stating anything that meant anything, and initially screening the comments in a way that made people felt cut off from each other in a way they didn't like. -20 points.

Depersonalization: At every turn, your mod team smells of taking complaints and concerns as personal attacks, allowing things to go on because you're personally friends with players (such as the questions about the AC issue), and overall just letting personal issues get in the direct way of being mods. It's prevalent with the warning and threats, the mistreatment of those with valid concerns, and overall just being willing to do whatever you can "get away with", since one-on-one chatter means people can't out your misbehavior on Wankgate without you potentially outing and banning them. This behavior, aka behavior that makes people feel unsafe talking to you and implies directly you're willing to be rude so long as nobody else knows or cares (IE, the way Blue handled Fran was airing out dirty laundry in public, but nobody minded because they wanted Fran gone, at the time), only educates us on your failings.

Bonus points: You are people, yes, and you have feelings, yes. But do you know what? An apology doesn't contain pointing fingers. An apology doesn't contain "I'm sorry, but these guys did...!". I wouldn't call this an apology by any means. Especially not with the subtle, unclear way you phrased your redirection, throwing blame and pretending that anyone held any stake in pretending ganging up on a mod was permissible. Like was stated, Olga was perfectly capable of stepping out of the spotlight to go talk with other mods; the players involved repeatedly insisted there was no rush, and said that the other mods made them uncomfortable, which you do: Mini is unapproachable and consistently overblown, and Blue has a habit of airing out dirty laundry in the open, making it unsafe to talk to her for risk of angering her. Especially for Batty, who was already taking Fran's position as a wank target on wankgate despite not doing anything worthwhile: many people suspected Blue's boldness was because of wg's support. This might be true or not, but it's a reasonable reason for Batty to have been uncomfortable with the other two mods talking to them directly. The assumption this wasn't true, a lie, or otherwise an excuse to gang up on Olga makes me believe that Mini was involved in that suggestion: She constantly appears to believe the players are scum and liars who are willing to say whatever to get their way. -40 points.

Aggression: This is part of the previously mentioned problem with Mini, and that problem is that, in general, players feel they are at risk of attack when approaching you or otherwise are being actively ASSUMED to be godmoding, powerplaying dicks who will sink the game whenever things go south. Most of this comes from changes and decisions and wordings that I personally associate with Mini, and the ban threats are no different: overall, it feels to me that the person who needs to be suspended, if not asked to step down, would be Mini, for her aggressive behavior, silencing and bullying actions, and in general poor conduct.

For the record, actively attacking players or thinking they'll game the system if you give them even a slice of slack... is rude, and players will notice. This is the major concern you completely overlooked, and for that, -60 points.

So, in result, the total is 0 points out of 100.

You guys need to lower the aggressiveness and approach this professionally rather than outright attacking players. You need to be able to recognize what times you need to put on your professional face, step back, and say "I'm going to go talk with the other mods." You need to be able to recognize what times you treat players like powergaming dirt, and stop.

My personal suggestions:
- Don't try and solve the original incident, but rather what the incident's become. Act transparently, and show us we can trust you. In case it wasn't obvious, a lot of people, sans those that are already on bad terms with Mini, are actually legitimately afraid to air out their concerns. Some people are hoping a duplicate game happens just because they can't trust you guys, and that says a lot about how people feel about you all and why.
- Suspend or remove Mini from being a mod. The wank has pulled up more than enough reasons about why she shouldn't be in power, and many people feel extremely unsafe because of how Mini acts and is. (This is mostly why socks are prevalent here.)
- Overall, understand that, even though this is a hobby, you need to treat this like you are a professional with a reputation to uphold, not by bullying and silencing, but by failing to provide any reason for your reputation to sink. I think you should take on an explicit PR mod or otherwise someone who is skilled at talking with others and being patient.

Also, talking to Anduin: Nobody thinks you've done anything in a long time. Are you going to step down, or could you be transparent and explain what you've done recently? If you haven't done anything, I would step down and provide your spot to someone else; there is strong wank about you, and if you aren't doing anything helpful for the mod team beyond favoritism towards your friend, then I think you should willingly let yourself be replaced, or you're at the risk of causing StE's reputation to sink further into the mud or otherwise letting it risk being replaced with a clone game and die.

[sockwall]

The mods keep telling us to be kind to each other and be kind to the mods. Those points are valid. But when the mods no longer uphold being kind to their players and abuse their power, to the point of players (like myself and others on this post) feel like they need to use a sock account to make any kind of comment instead of risk being banned, it's no longer an equivalent exchange. Whether the mods have realized it or not, it makes them out to be more like dictators than moderators and fellow players. Because one person asked if a death announcement (not the death itself) could be moved, the mod(s) got s defensive that anyone "complaining" about the refusal got sent a ban notice. That's enough for me to want to drop this game entirely. You're moderators of an online rp game in a tiny corner of the internet, not the fucking gestapo.

Next time you apologize, make sure you don't point fingers back at players involved too. It just makes you seem like even larger babies who can't take criticism and can't take being backed into a corner because people pointed out that you were wrong about something. Mods are people, but they are mods. The players come first, and you should know this. The players involved maybe should have handled the situation better but your reactions have overshadowed all of that. As stated above, I really do think Mini should get a suspension and be taken off of the mod team.

This game is no longer a safe place for its player base. I hope you realize that.

[gobybessie]

For the most part, I haven't had many complaints about your work as mods. Or any complaints at all. But the fact remains that plenty of them have been brought up, whether directly to you or not. I'm not very familiar with any of that, honestly. But it's never been that big of a deal before.

Now it kind of is. Like many have already pointed out, when it's gotten to the point where so many people feel that they need to use sock accounts to be comfortable talking to you, and when there have been apps rescinded that probably have to do with this considering the timing, and when people are saying they'll drop and people who might have entertained the idea of apping are now saying they won't, there's a serious problem.

I've been a mod and there are a few situations where, in hindsight, I wish I would have approached them differently. Me and my team fucked up and issued apologies too. We contributed to people dropping the game. Now, I wish that we'd dealt with it in another way than we did. It felt a lot like we just brushed it under the rug, and I'm ashamed of that.

Don't make that mistake. Players are uncomfortable and it's your duty to make sure they're comfortable again, to make sure that your game is a safe space for everyone. Being irritated that echoes or apps aren't being processed quick enough or that there was lack of a heads-up regarding a plot or whatever, is something entirely different from people wanting to drop and make a clone game with other mods. It's bad.

I pretty much agree with everything that's been said here, and it's clear that it's not a new problem. I think you should set clearer boundaries, scrutinise your team, have a serious discussion or several about what your players have presented as their wishes here or elsewhere, and do whatever has to be done to ensure the players of this game can feel safe again. However drastic that is.

[fae_of_the_rose]

I am going to be perfectly honest: even though I had no idea there was a problem of any sort until this post was made, this sadly doesn't read like an apology. Had you left out the paragraph about a mod being ganged up on, it would have read much better. I don't think it would have prevented so many people on this post right now being upset and angry at the mods, but it would have been an actual apology. As it stands, it reads like a "we're sorry but" and that does nothing but make people feel even more unwanted and unsafe. Are you guys the sole problem? No, of course not.

I don't know the entire story, but I've no doubt that both sides have legitimate concerns--especially since I'm a mod at another game and I know that it's not easy and sometimes it's overwhelming and every little thing will sometimes come off as a personal attack. The bigger the playerbase, the more overwhelming it's going to be. Screwing up is totally expected and honestly no player expects perfect mods (and if they do they will be sorely disappointed). It's how you handle the screw ups that matter.

Like others have said, despite the "we're sorry but" feeling to the post, making the post and allowing feedback is a step in the right direction, though that half the playerbase had no idea there was even a problem until now isn't a good sign. You guys messed up. From the sounds of it, you messed up pretty badly. But take the comments on this post to heart, consider what the players are saying, and rethink a few strategies. If it were me, I would personally remove the mod who's been warned (as a mod, she should be held to a higher standard and where a warning might work for a regular player, a mod isn't a regular player), work to be more transparent and open with the players, and consider opening up applications for a support team of sorts, perhaps one specifically for plots. The game is huge and complicated and compartmentalizing might be a good idea. I would hate to see this wonderful and elaborate game crash and burn and I hope that you guys take the feedback offered on the post to heart.

Editing to add: I would also seriously suggest never looking at rpanons or wg, both as a mod and as a player. Literally nothing good can come from it, and sometimes it just makes problems worse.

[onecream_fivesugar]

Hey there!

Been talking to some people on Plurk and we came up with a neat idea for the whole handling planned plots here. How about a Calender? Paradisa has one and it was a pretty easy way to see when something was going on when I played there.

http://paradisaooc.dreamwidth.org/6296942.html#cutid1

You could always color code the events between meta-plot and player plot, whether it's happening in Locke or Vegas, and OOC stuff.

[pianistofraielin]

Batty did not include us in that plurk to make Olga feel cornered. She included us for the purpose of accountability, both the mods' and her own. At the time she did not trust any member of the mod team would treat her fairly and wanted witnesses to ensure the mods she contacted would act reasonably, and she also wanted the pressure of having witnesses to keep herself from saying something she'd regret.

I know I personally have requested to have a moderator present during a discussion with another player not because I wanted to feel like I had a mod on my side, but because I did not trust myself to remain level-headed without having that sort of accountability hanging over me. Part of Batty's reason for including us was the same.

However, I understand that Olga was not in a good place to handle a mod complaint at the time, and I understand why the situation made her feel cornered. I offer the above as an explanation, but I acknowledge my part in upsetting her and making her feel like she was being ganged up on, and I would like to extend an apology to Olga for my role in making her feel uncomfortable.

I appreciate the attempt the mods are making at amends with this post, but I feel like the main issue here has not been addressed: that is, Batty felt she was not treated fairly in regards to the plot issue. A player had a problem and addressed it through the proper channels at every stage, and not only did she have her original concern (being treated unfairly) brushed off, but she was given a warning (for which she has not received an apology) for voicing it in the first place.

This incident has pretty much guaranteed that players cannot feel comfortable bringing issues to the mods privately. It's clear by all the sock accounts in this post, and even I feel like I'm risking my position in the game by posting this from an account that has my name attached. After this, you need to have a public by default mod contact means available, because many players no longer feel like they can trust the mod team to be reasonable without public eyes on them to hold them accountable for what they do.

I know it sucks to be scrutinized so heavily, but if you lose trust, you have to earn it back, and increased transparency is one way to start.

[mendedsocks]

The whining about being "ganged up on" while "refusing their own comfort" (what??) is childish, inaccurate, and inappropriate here. Olga was not the only mod invited to that plurk; the plurk was to Anduin as well. Not the players' fault if Anduin wasn't around to respond, or didn't choose to.

In addition, Olga had NO obligation to engage in a discussion in that plurk while she wasn't feeling well. She started engaging in a conversation BEFORE mentioning that she had a migraine. The players in that plurk were conscientious of that, and when Olga did (finally) put the conversation on hold until the next day, the others involved gracefully accepted that.

Things Olga could have done differently:

- waited until she was feeling better to respond
- responded briefly just to acknowledge that she saw the plurk, and waited until she was feeling better to delve into a conversation
- gotten hold of Anduin, the other mod invited to the plurk, so that she would have some backup
- worked with Batty to find a venue (such as a private plurk with two mods, Batty, and one other player) that both of them were comfortable with

She CHOSE to engage immediately and alone.

I've seen the plurk in question. There were a lot of people there, yes - maybe too many, but Batty did explain her reasoning for inviting them. Olga waited until her second to last reply in the plurk to say that she didn't appreciate "being ganged up [on] by all of you as I was." If she had truly felt uncomfortable, she should have said so right at the beginning. She should have told Batty right away if she felt it was inappropriate to have someone not in the game involved in the plurk. She should have worked with Batty to find a venue that everyone was comfortable with, where no one felt "ganged up on" or alone. Instead, she took part in the conversation when by her own account she had a migraine. She insisted on sharing the whole matter with her comods, including Mini, despite Batty's attempts to explain to her that she felt uncomfortable having Mini involved in the discussion. She waited to voice her own discomfort at being "ganged up on" until after she had already begun discussing in-depth.

Everything else aside, this accusation and the resulting PMs and ban warnings are bullshit. The PM sent to those players involved in the plurk said, among other things, that "It is unacceptable to ambush and gang up on another person" (my emphasis). THIS DID NOT HAPPEN. There were no attacks. There was no ambushing. This was a plurk, not a knife to Olga's throat, and she had no obligation to say anything more there than "hey, I see this. Batty, let's talk tomorrow."

The transcripts of the plurk and resulting PMs aren't mine to share, but I would highly encourage anyone involved in the game to seek them out and read them for themselves, in order to get an unbiased picture of what happened.

[twelfthspark]

I personally didn't have a clue what was going on until today, and honestly I probably wouldn't have cared to know if it weren't for the vague talk about "an incident" and "treating the mods like people" (I thought that one was actually about Fran.)

But when it's gotten to the point where people are using sock accounts for fear of banning/getting their plots rejected and there's quite a bit of serious talk about making a clone game... that's alarming.

After reading everything over (and not just anon gossip!), I'm going to add my vote to the "Mini should be removed from the modteam" pile, for the sake of the stability of the game. And the other commenters here have good points, so please try and take them to heart!

[sockinit]

So there's been a lot of call for Mini to resign, but I'm not so sure.

First of all, I would like to know Mini's reason for not moving her death drop thing. I would actually like to see what exactly happened in those conversations in general, or at least hear some explanation of it from the other side. I may be outing myself here since I've mentioned this before, but to be blunt, her refusal to move that death seems so bizarrely unnecessary that I have to wonder if there's something we're missing. All we see of that initial complaint is the aftermath: namely, that the people who were throwing the party were upset. Mini should come forward and explain her motivations. If they're stupid, then fine, I agree we should axe her, but right now as far as I know we have zero explanation at all, and that means our picture is incomplete.

Secondly, since the crux of the problem that pushed this from 'annoying' to 'abjectly horrible' was the PMs, I'd like to know who wrote them up. Whichever mod that was is the one who should be cut from the modteam. If it was Mini, then again, she should be cut, but I don't see any evidence just now that it was. If anything, I would think that it'd be Olga, right? Since she was the offended party. I'd also like to see the mods explain who exactly was responsible for that piece of work.

[elduderino]

I'm not really the sort of guy who goes around handing out his fuckin' opinion to just anyone. I'm not like Walter, who flies off the handle the second someone says something he disagrees with.

But yeah, man, I guess now's a good time to really speak up, huh? Now or never or what-have-you. And, uh, I have to agree with almost everything said here already. I'm sure the earlier out-of-character post and the PMs were a real, honest-to-good mistake on the part of the mods -- probably made in the heat of the moment. But the way it was it was handled?

Very un-Dude.

And yeah, I think all this stuff that's written here is all pretty fuckin' vague, man. Like, there were a couple of times reading this thing where I was like what exactly's going on here? Maybe you're trying to avoid mentioning specifics because you don't wanna create more drama for the, uh, involved parties, but that's what this game needs, man. Specifics. The whole vague thing just kinda sets people off. And when people are already pissed off, there's no use pissing them off any more than you have already. Tell us who got warned, what you're going to do to fix this little problem of yours, and, uh, how you're going to prevent it from happening in the future. Maybe consider opening up mod apps, too.

That's all people want, man.

I'm pretty sure you guys are gonna clarify things in your next post so I don't want to waste my time repeating what everyone else's said already. Just know that I'm pretty much in agreement here.

I hope you guys take it fuckin' easy before you write anything else and come back to all this with a level head.

Maybe smoke a J first, too.

[batsock]

I knew it was an issue from some past wank, but this is definite proof that you guys really, really need to work on your inter-mod communication. Because the original explanation given for prioritizing Mini over a previously approved plot initially came from some mods being unaware of important information about what's going on in game.

That's a really bad thing, and the fact that it's given as an explanation for issues in game as much as it is is even worse, because it shows me that you guys really haven't done anything to fix this issue, if it's not just an excuse.

Ban threats were very much out of line, and I'm glad you've come to recognize us, but it's very bad form to apologize with the "but you drove us to this" caveat in it. Do I think that many people, including one not in game, needed to be there? Not necessarily, but this is hardly an offense worth a warning. Furthermore, the fact that including two mods means you only get one shouldn't be something to blame the players for. That's on Anduin. While I understand that her schedule may not line up perfectly with Olga's and it's ridiculous to expect her to be around 24/7, the fact of the matter is that she never seems to be around. I've been in this game for a good chunk of its existence(though I did join after the Desu/Robyn fiasco) and I've literally never seen Anduin do anything.

So, while Batty and co. are probably aware of the fact that Anduin rarely does anything, that should not be something to hold on them. They tried to include her anyway, so their aim was certainly not to "gang up" on anyone. In fact, upon discovering that Olga didn't feel well they actively encouraged her to leave and come back when she felt better. They stated multiple times that they were fine with waiting and with Olga passing on info to the mods they were complaining about but would rather not talk to directly, which I think is 100% more cooperative and reasonable than the mods were being with this particular matter.

I've tried to be supportive of the mods, because while you're an extremely flawed team I enjoy this game a lot and would certainly like to see you do better. I'd like to believe you can do better. We've seen a few improvements in response to criticism, but the biggest issues within the mod team never seem to be addressed. I've had the most communication with Blue as a mod, because honestly? She's the only one who ever really felt approachable and available, even if she certainly has other faults as a mod. As before stated, I've never seen Anduin do anything modly. I've seen Olga do echoes and apps occasionally, but it feels like a pretty large amount of the time it's Mini. While I understand that mod duties aren't always noticeable, it is important to try and have some sort of visible presence in the game, because it makes players feel a lot more like you're worth approaching. Mini I definitely see around but she seems to be very selective with who she'll interact, which isn't what a mod should be. She doesn't have to be everyone's friend, but she should seem available for discussion. She should also seem like someone you can have a discussion with without getting condescending, aggressively worded responses like she's often prone to. I agree with everyone who says she seems to nitpick whatever people are saying and jump to the worst possible conclusions from it.

1/4 for mods I feel comfortable talking to is a really bad sign, in my opinion.

please respond to my second comment-- not this one. i'm going to be editing this one.

[shineonyou]

Alright, so I suggested to Blue when she contacted me that she ought to do a second post after this, directly addressing all the major issues that everyone has brought up today. The importance of this is so that all your good points don't get lost in a shuffle of comments, sock accounts (which are totally legit), and +1s. What I'm going to try to do in this comment is highlight the key bullet point issues that are an absolute NECESSITY for the next post. I'll also provide explanations synthesizing all the comments on this post so far.


» Players are uncomfortable with coming to the mods
• the PM warnings: We need to know who wrote them, who signed off on the warning, what they were thinking at the time.
• the 'Don't Be Mean to Mods' OOC comm post: same info required.
• Accountability and Transparency: people are legitimately worried about approaching the mods in a one-on-one, private manner. in the past, issues that have been brought up or plot points presented have been completely forgotten or totally shut down.
• Mini's role in this and what will happen to her?
• Blue's role in the initial problem with Mini, and what exactly she said/did to Batty.
• Anduin's role in this and what will happen to her?

posts for further details:
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5785216#cmt5785216
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5784192#cmt5784192
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5791104#cmt5791104
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5794432#cmt5794432
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5797504#cmt5797504
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5803136#cmt5803136
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5803392#cmt5803392
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5803392#cmt5803392
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5806720#cmt5806720

» Rules, upholding and enforcing how the game runs
• Anduin and AC: what is going on here?
→the cast member in question responded here
→Anduin responded here
• Plot handling in the future: if there are two conflicting plots, what will you do? how will you make sure you aren't shutting down players' ideas or being inflexible?
• Information dispersal: it seems like some players are "in the know" about plots while others aren't.
• Questionable bias against Batty/other players: was this a problem Mini had? What do you do if this happens in the future?

posts for further details:
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5792896#cmt5792896
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5789568#cmt5789568
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5799296#cmt5799296
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5832064#cmt5832064

» Mod Roles
• PR; obviously whoever wrote those PMs to myself and others should probably never ever deal with players ever again. what will you do to work on PR?
• Are you guys communicating with each other? is there a way you can work on that? what plans will you implement to make it so that you're all on board with your own decisions? what plans will you implement to make sure your own decisions aren't like what's happened here?
• Mod apps? you guys definitely need more people on the team-- either to balance you guys out or to just generally help with the workload of a huge game.
• who does what? this technically fits under transparency, but it also fits here-- we know certain mods are more picky with apps than others, we know certain mods are better at handling player plots and player concerns than others. can we get it in concrete who does what so there won't be such varying standards?

posts for further details:
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5785728#cmt5785728
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5815680#cmt5815680

good solutions:
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5799552#cmt5799552
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5799296#cmt5799296
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5810048#cmt5810048
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5832320#cmt5832320

good summation of the major problems:
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5793152#cmt5793152
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5805952#cmt5805952
http://saveyourselves.dreamwidth.org/213376.html?thread=5809792#cmt5809792 - (wonderful analysis on what it means to be a mod)

finally, here's a link to my original plurk where I explain everything from the original plot conflict to setting up a date for me and Guin to walk the mods through each of these points.
batty's apology
legitimate concerns about the discussion's tone thus far

please respond to me on this comment since i'll be editing the above

[shineonyou]

heyyo, alright-- if you think i've missed anything in my synthesis or that i should pay particular attention to something i only glossed over, tell me here. this is to help the mods out for their next post.

i also totally believe that they ought to fully address everyone's role during this whole event, detail out what actions were taken and what communication happened between the four, and finally have each mod explain what they will individually do in the future to keep this from happening again.

[justkingreally]

I'm going to start this out by saying that I'm relatively new to the game, and I've had no interaction with any of the mods beyond what happens on the application and echo pages, without even having any of the mods friended on plurk. I know very few people in the game personally, so I'm about as much of an outsider as you can get on something like this and still be in the game.

That said, I was a mod/leader of various types of online RP games from 2001, when I was an unemployed high schooler, until the end of 2011, when I was (and still am) a full-time working bill-paying adult, so I've definitely stepped in my share of mod potholes over the years. Modding is stressful - that's the entire reason I don't do it anymore. I want to get online and have my fun outside of my stressful job, not get online and have to go to what more or less becomes a second job. Mods never get enough credit for what they do, it's true - but what's happened here has gone beyond allowable mod rage and needs to be curtailed and, more importantly, controlled in the future. Mod rage is a potent weapon for driving people away, as you're unfortunately finding out, and it needs to be handled with kid gloves to achieve the desired effect - that being players realizing they can't just fuck around and do whatever they want, when they've actually done so, and that consequences will be appropriate to the circumstances, neither too harsh nor too lenient to the point of being nonexistent. From everything I've read about this situation, you've been leaning far too much to the former for a long time now, with some aberrations towards the latter when it involves yourselves or people you're close to.

I have to say that I'm really not impressed with how all of this went down, and I appreciate the transparency shown by those players that put the word out, not the mods. I won't go so far as to say that this apology isn't an apology at all, but it's certainly a conditional one. There's still a great deal of victim blaming going on, which is exactly what's going on here. I can easily translate this post into "We only did this because she did this first," and while technically that might be true, there is no way in hell that emotionally or logically its right. Batty brought a complaint to the mods. From the sounds of the plurk caps, she tried to do it with more than one mod, over the course of at least one day and probably more. She handled the confrontation with far more class and tact than any of the mods showed, repeatedly stating that she did not expect anything to happen immediately, and yet she was jumped on. You haven't apologized for that at all. At the time of this writing, I'm honestly not expecting you to, because the mod collective seems to be very reluctant to admit they're wrong. Batty's crime was bringing in more people to a private plurk than the mods were comfortable with (when one of the mods that was pinged in the plurk never responded at all). The mods' crime was blatantly ignoring her complaints, telling her her complaints were baseless, and compounding it with disregarding repeated attempts to bring up the complaints from Batty herself and other players. In effect, Batty stole an energy drink from a convenience store, while the mods robbed a bank.

Having said that, I don't think this situation is unsalvageable, but you're going to have to put in a lot of work to make it up to the players and even yourselves as mods. When you choose to mod a game, you automatically place yourselves above the players, and in theory that's fine - a car needs to have a driver for it to go anywhere, and a game needs a leader for it to continue. You guys are the drivers, the dungeon masters, the coaches, and your "payment" is the ability to control the world, the plots, and in some ways even what player characters do (or at least have the option to do). But you pay for those privileges by having to hold yourselves to even higher standards than you do the players, and from everything that's been said here you've been taking the good things without accepting the less good. That needs to change immediately, first by being as transparent as possible- actually, no, that's third. First is actually admitting that you haven't been holding yourselves accountable to those high standards that mods need to abide by. Second is returning to holding yourselves accountable to those same high standards and sticking to it. Third is being as transparent as possible with the playerbase and retaining that high level of transparency until such a time as they choose to "remove you from parole." It won't be easy, but it's what's necessary.

I'm going to give some suggestions for things that I think (or at least hope) would help the situation, and while some of them involve a bit of work, it's work that seems, to me, to be worth it. Do I think this game is good? Yes, or I wouldn't want to play here. Do I want to keep playing in this setting? Definitely. But with a mod team that has this tight a grip on the reins with seemingly no maneuverability, things need to change or the game is going to stall and die. No one wants that.

On to the list.

[earnedmystripes]

Hello everyone.

I’m sure you’ve all been waiting for me to say my piece, so here I am, finally. I’ve waited this long to comment because I’ve been doing what I should have done in the first place, and taken some time to emotionally distance myself from this matter. I believe the concerns I had were legitimate, but admittedly, I was unsure how to approach the matter and I should have taken the time to consider my course of action more carefully. In retrospect, I realize that adding four parties to the private plurk was a bit excessive, and including a former player was not the best idea. I’ve apologized privately to Olga for these things, because upsetting her is the last thing I ever wanted to happen, and here is my apology to the playerbase for my role in this conflagration.

[holeysock]

I am commenting here largely to voice my agreement with most of what has been said, because I figure the more voices chiming in, the better an idea we have of the general consensus among players.

To be a bit more specific than just "I agree with most of this", I think to begin with, we need complete and full transparency from the mods on what has happened here. I think it'd be best to hold off condemning any particular person or making any final decisions until after we have all of that information. Linda, Batty, and co. have already given us all the information on their side of the story. Now we need the mods'.

And I believe this ought to include an account from all four mods of their involvement in this particular incident, as well as their general duties on modding, etc. I mean full transparency. About everything. No holding anything back, spell out everything explicitly.

I'm very sorry that it's gotten to this point. Being scrutinized to this degree is nervewracking and can feel unfair and like an attack, especially when this entire situation came about from people feeling as though they are being attacked in the first place. But this isn't supposed to be another attack on the mods--there is obviously a problem here and no one is sure quite how deep it runs, so we need full disclosure in order to understand the full scope of the situation and to be able to regain trust. Hopefully once all of the cards are on the table, on everyone's behalf, we as a game (players and mods together) can sort out what needs to be improved so that we can move on from this.

(Also, I am chiming in to say that yes, absolutely we need more mods and more delegation amongst them going forward. Plot mods, maybe a specific dedicated echo request mod or two, app mods, maybe a specific PR mod to mediate in the wake of all of this? The more the duties are spread out, the less stressful things are likely to become, and hopefully the better we'll be able to handle things.)

[guitar_case_vagabond]

Okay. I spent the better part of my day today considering just what I was going to say to this and looking through it now it seems a lot of it has already been said so I'm not gonna take the cudgel to the dead horse.

Here's where we are right now though. You guys blew it here. Seriously. You had a player who, for whatever reason, felt so uncomfortable approaching her mods with game concerns that she felt the need to bring backup and instead of trying to resolve the matter, make amends, reach out, whatever, you instead opted to punish her. Let me run that by you again. A player considered a mod environment to be so hostile that she needed support and you decided the best course of action was to issue ban warnings to everyone involved, drop an extraordinarily hypocritical and passive-aggressive post about respect and then deliver a form letter apology only after you were called out on it.

I've seen the plurks in question too and I don't buy that "ganging up on" business for a second. While I'll grant that including somebody who wasn't in the game was unusual and unnecessary, the players made it clear that they were willing to wait until the issue was discussed with the other mods before a decision was reached. When Olga said she wasn't feeling well, the response was basically "no problem, we'll wait." She continued the conversation past that point herself until she ended it and, from what I can tell, the next thing anybody heard of it they were being issued ban warnings.

This is not the way to do things as mods. At all. And the fallout speaks for itself. People are upset, there's talk of hiatuses, questioning the future of the game, talk of a clone, players opting to voice their concerns via sock accounts and anon posting for fear of repercussions and people I know who were considering apping are dropping the idea. Even I've found myself rethinking some of the characters I wanted to bring in before all of this. One in particular since the character in questions would require a lot of collaboration with the mod team to work properly.

This is bad, guys. Hostility between players and mods is a death sentence in RP. No game can survive an "us vs. them" mentality between players and mods. Ever.

Now, I'm not going to join the people calling for anybody to be suspended or given the boot. Things were handled poorly but I don't believe it was done maliciously and I'd rather everybody learn from the missteps that were made rather than just pay for them. What I will do, is make a proposition.

I've noticed there are a lot of people here saying it would be a good move to add new mods and compartmentalize tasks. I agree with this. I've also noticed a couple of people suggest appointing a PR mod.

I'm volunteering for this job.

Basically, what I want to do is create an account separate from the main mod account. Players (and mods) who don't feel comfortable directly addressing anybody they have concerns with can PM this account or comment on a post on it with their preference. They can voice their concerns, request the presence of a third party in dealing with somebody, or whatever they feel the need to do. I'll run the account myself, or along with anybody else who wants to help out, indefinitely or until the mod/player relationship improves. Whichever comes first. If you want my credentials, I've had modding experience in the past and I've dealt with conflict and people have pretty much universally told me I'm approachable, level-headed and easy to work with.

So, this is my offer to help out with the situation we've found ourselves in. I love this game and I love the CR and plans I've made here and I don't want to see it fall apart over something like this. I know this game will end one day but when it does I want to be able to look back with fond memories and I'm sure everyone else feels the same way.

I'm willing to discuss this here, PM, plurk, whatever. Let me know what you think.

[whatasockingplan]

I just want to say your inability to apologise without blaming others for your faults is sad and disappointing yet unsurprising.

Right now there's a screencap of you guys 'apologising' to a player and lifting a warning you issued BUT immediately you go on about how disappointed you are with them for your actions. Negating the apology and slapping the player right in the face with your very unapologetic attitude. The fact you had the balls to do that in the wake of some of the biggest offenders among the moderators running away with their tails between their legs is amusing and hypocritical. In private you're happy to try and push others about in their face yet in public like here you sidestep and do a dance to skirt around the issue.

You go on and on acting like you're in the right for this when you're all clearly trying to sweep this issue under the rug. I love this game and with how you're all acting at this rate is going to lead to its death for sure. I hope you're all happy with yourselves.

In before sockinit and others rushes towards me with their lance at the ready. :)

[sockingedly]

Is this real? I sure hope not.